S1.E10. Copenhagen’s Longest-Running Cocktail Bar Owner: Why Your Bar Is Failing Before You Even Open
If you’re a bartender dreaming of your own venue, a bar owner grinding through year two, or a hospitality professional wondering whether this industry can ever leave room for a life: this episode is for you. Manuel sits down with Kirsten Holm, owner of KBAR in downtown Copenhagen. She has 42 years in the industry, 23 of them running the city’s longest-running cocktail bar. Kirsten helped introduce serious cocktail culture to Denmark long before it was fashionable, and she has outlasted every concept-bar wave since. This is what discipline actually looks like.
From Film Studies to the Hotel Bar
Like so many careers in hospitality, Kirsten’s started sideways. She was a university student reading television and film science, picking up weekend shifts in a nightclub inside a big Copenhagen hotel because the money was good. The study job became the career, and the hotel bar became her school, teaching her fresh ingredients and proper craft years before “cocktail culture” was a phrase anyone in Denmark used.
The takeaway for anyone early in their journey: the job you take to pay for something else can turn out to be the something else, if you treat it like a craft instead of a shift.
Opening KBAR: No Happy Hour, No Apologies
When Kirsten opened KBAR 23 years ago, almost nobody believed in it. “A lot of people were saying I was crazy. I wasn’t doing happy hour. The bank was not very nice to me. They wouldn’t give me a plastic card. They gave me checks.”
She refused to discount her way into a market. Instead she bet on unapologetically high standards, and an independent institution was born that has now outlived every trend that was supposed to kill it. For bar owners, the lesson is blunt: a clear standard beats a cheap offer, every single year, for twenty-three years running.
“You Don’t Have Friends. You Have Customers.”
It sounds cold. Kirsten argues it’s the healthiest sentence a new owner can learn. Boundaries are what let you charge properly, staff properly, and greet the room warmly for decades without burning out on it. She talks about the science of first impressions, how a guest decides how the night will feel in the seconds after the door opens, and why that moment is a professional performance, not a social one.
Warmth is the product; boundaries are what keep it in stock.
Act Like a Professional
“If you want to become a professional, then act like a professional.” Kirsten’s bar runs on a rule that still surprises people: nobody looks down on anyone for having fun. “But if you do it at work, or if you come to work with a hangover, you’re fired.”
She points to Danish chefs as the benchmark: they turned their trade into a respected profession with real careers, real standards and real pride, something bartending, in her view, still hasn’t fully matched. The mindset shift she wants every bartender to make: from “I mix drinks” to “I run a serious business”.
Outlasting Discrimination
Forty-two years in the industry also means four decades of being underestimated as a woman behind and above the bar. Kirsten is direct about it: “There’s a lot of discrimination going on. You just have to brush it off your shoulder and work hard and go for it.” Not because the discrimination is acceptable, but because she refuses to let it write her story. Her longevity is the rebuttal.
A Bar That Doesn’t Swallow Your Life
Perhaps the most valuable stretch of the conversation is about adrenaline. Kirsten distinguishes “factory adrenaline”, the frantic, reactive rush of a slammed shift, from “control adrenaline”, the energy of a room you command. One drains you; the other builds you. Add deliberate schedule management and hiring for chemistry without compromising standards, and you get her quiet secret: a world-class bar and a life outside it are not opposites: they’re the same discipline applied twice.
Key Advice for Bar Owners & Bartenders:
- “You don’t have friends, you have customers.” Boundaries aren’t cold; they’re what make decades of warm hospitality possible.
- Standards over discounts. KBAR never ran a happy hour, and it has outlived every bar that did.
- Professionalism is a choice you make daily. Act like a professional and the industry will eventually treat you like one.
Listen Now & Get Inspired
Tune in to the full conversation wherever you get your podcasts. Whether you’re shaking your first daiquiri or signing the lease on your own room, Kirsten’s 42 years of hard-won clarity will change how you think about the trade.
👉 Subscribe to BARVOX for more stories from industry trailblazers.
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👉 Share this with a bartender or entrepreneur who needs a push.
Transcript
Copenhagen’s Longest-Running Cocktail Bar Owner: Why Your Bar Is Failing Before You Even Open
Auto-generated transcript; it may contain small transcription errors.
When you when you open your own business, you don't have friends. You have customers. And a lot of people were saying I was crazy. I wasn't doing happy hour. The bank was not very nice to me. They wouldn't give me a plastic card. They gave me checks. If you want to become a professional, then act like a professional. I don't think anyone in our business is looking down the nose at anyone who gets drunk or anything. But if you do it at work or if you
come to work with a hangover, you're fired. And there's a lot of discrimination going on. You just have to brush it off your shoulder and work hard and go for it. Kirsten, thank you for so much for being my guest to the Barox podcast. Thank you for inviting me. My name is Kristen Holm. I own KB Bar and uh it's a cocktail bar in uh downtown Copenhagen and I've owned it for 23 years, but I've been in the business for about 42 years. Um I did
it ever since I was totally young. I started in the hotel business. Wow. 23 years. That's a that's a career path as an owner and as well the the prior years as um as a bartender or starting in this career. How did you actually start? How did you ended up in this industry? Well, I think I started like a lot of other people do. Um I was a student at university reading uh television and film science and um it was called that at that time and
in the weekends I worked in a nightclub in a big hotel and um and it was very it was quite good money at that time and uh and it was fun because it was so different from anything else I've done in my life. Uh, nobody in my family has ever done anything like that. And and I think what really attracted me to the business was how two hours were never the same. The days were never the same. Um, and looking back, I also think what I
really liked about it was that you come in and you do a and you actually finish and you go out, you turn off the light and everything's been done. It's from going to A to Z. I think a lot of jobs, you know, consultancies and this and that, many times you don't see the end. That's what at least what a lot of people tell me. You know, a lot of nurses and doctors and so on, they don't see the end, the end result. And I think
that's also what's really satisfying in our business. You do a catering uh you know, a cocktail catering and you see it from the beginning to the end. It I think for me that mentally is is very satisfying. Um I like all the crazy unexpected moments. Um you you can never foresee what's going to happen. When it's going to happen, who's going to do it? I think still this day today I like it's full of surprises to be behind uh behind a bar. Through our discussions in
here with the previous guest as well, one thing that we noticed is most of the people in the industry, they are somehow adrenaline junkies. Is that the case with you as well? Um, I know what they mean. Yes. Um, and it's actually there's I for me there's different kinds of adrenaline. Uh, there's the Friday and Saturday, you know, for the three and four hours where it's totally crazy. I think that that is a real adrenaline rush. Um, I also enjoy the adrenaline rush that I find
is very different when you are in total control. You know, like on on a Wednesday, for example, when you're alone in the bar serving, you're receiving people at the door and you're waving them goodbye. Um I think that to get everything right uh not to make the guest it's a different kind of rush where it's more I would call it a factory factory working situation Friday and Saturday. Yeah. So on the on the weekdays it's more like control adrenaline. Let's let's call it like that where
you are in control and then the the guest are in there to to have a good time. Yes. Perfect. Tell us a bit how you how you opened KBAR because KBAR right now it's uh the bar with the longest activity in Copenhagen, right? Yes. Yeah. Um, well, I worked at I um I worked at the Royal Hotel, which is one of the world's oldest designer hotels. And I think, you know, in the '9s, it be it started to become very um abroad, not so much in
Denmark or in Scandinavia, but abroad it became very posh to go to uh hotel bars and be seen in hotel bars, to meet in hotel bars in New York, London, everywhere. but not in Scandinavia. And um and because we were the oldest uh boutique hotel and uh it was Anna Yagabson who designed the hotel, there's actually quite an amazing history behind it because Ani Yagabon, he did, you know, he's famous for the chairs. You know, everyone's always saying, "Oh, the chairs, but he did, you know,
he did the building, he did the cutlery, he did the toilet paper holder, he did, you know, he did everything. So in that way he was more than just amazing. Um so we had tons and tons of architect students, architect nerds, um foreign designer nerds. We had rock stars coming into the hotel looking at the hotel because it was so worldwide famous. I think it was more famous abroad than it was in Denmark at that time. And what really struck me was we had uh at
that time we had wallpaper the magazine wallpaper. We had a whole you know a big crew staying uh doing design in Denmark and they got you know money from wonderful Copenhagen this. So they actually stayed much longer and they did an extra issue uh in wallpaper uh but also because they found more than they had expected to write about. Well at least that's what they say or the money was good. I don't know. Um, and I I you know, I talked to them because many of
them were actually there for, you know, about three months. Um, and they were just so shocked. There was no cocktail bar in town. They couldn't, you know, it was only in the hotels. And actually, the Royal Hotel was the only hotel in the whole of Copenhagen where we muddled, you know, because I was playing with ginger, chili, uh, lemongrass, um, trying to muddle and do it. We didn't have anything on the card, but I tried to make martinis with because, you know, it was the 90s
with all these effects. And um and they said it was the only place they experienced in Denmark where there was, you know, a contemporary touch. And that sort of just sat in me. And um and you know, I was also getting older at that time. I was thinking, oh my god, you know, is there, you know, also all my bosses, the general manager, they all got suddenly younger than me. And I was thinking, gosh, you know, is somebody well, you know, it's it was a mix
of elements, but I was also thinking, gosh, is the general manager is going to change me out with an, you know, an 18-year-old blonde at some stage, you know, or um so and I just I knew that the bar was the most and I knew that from everyone that the bar was the most profitable business in the whole hotel. Um so the times were really for us. So when I visited my sister in London, I brought back fresh ginger. It it wasn't that easy to get
in Copenhagen, you know, coriander and some spices and this and that. So, you know, I always brought it back and muddled and shook and infused and this and that. And uh the hotel gave us totally free hands because it it suited the hotel that we did that kind of cocktails. Um, so I was, you know, traveling the world. I also came to Scotland a few times because my my brother-in-law is originally from Scotland. And it just struck me that small fishing towns in Scotland had a
cocktail bar. And it was just everywhere in Scotland, everywhere in Britain, they had cocktail bars in town. And even some of the smarter gastro pubs could make a few cocktails and actually very decent cocktails compared to what you could get in Copenhagen. And it just the whole thing it just started growing in my mind that this this was really crazy. And um just to make a very long story short, um I also think was 911, you know, uh the change in first class hotel guest changed.
we were suddenly making less money and I just thought I'm just too old for this to happen to me. I I don't deserve what I've done for this hotel to go down in salary because we're getting crummy guests. Yeah. Um and then suddenly one of I I said to my father, you know, I'd really like to look at location. He was a little bit uh spoofed by it, but uh we went around and he was of course very annoying because he was immediately looking at budgets.
He was really annoying. No, this is too expensive because then on monthly you have to sell for and so but he was probably you know my he was well he was very uh he was very good at that and um and suddenly one day the the location where Kar came up and a friend of mine who was in the wine business he said listen I've been asked if I could would open a wine bar but I don't why don't you go and look at it so
I did and um and that's and that's how it all started. It was actually an old seamstress room for a very rich woman and she passed away and and that's how the the rooms were were up for were offered. Yeah. And then uh and then you start that the the cocktail bar itself. I have one question before that one. How much your family did influence or your supported you? Because you mentioned your father helped you with all of the numbers. Well, I tell you just from
right from when I was very very young where they could see that I was doing less and less university and more and more bar work uh they were not happy you know and I think all parents are like that. You ask any bartender their parents are not wild about it. Um and also because I I I wasn't getting papers on my education. I wasn't finishing it properly. Um I even don't think my education my parents weren't wild about either but um but when I started open
looking at at my own location my father was really worried so he was my toughest critic when it came to budget and um and also the bank was not very nice to me and and it was only because I'm a woman they wouldn't give me a plastic card they gave me checks I could use to pay and you know I knew males that were opening restaurants. They were getting a plastic card, a credit card, you know, it was just everything was very different and and people
weren't were really hard to negotiate with on on alcohol uh contracts and all, but that's a whole different discussion. And I've been brought up to brush all that off me, you know, it's not I don't want to look back at it as something negative or anything, you know, it's doesn't matter. But it was just interesting. Mhm. Um, so a lot of people thought I was a little bit cuckoo because when people walked in, I had the shakers, you know, just actually a lot like it is
now, the shakers lined up uh and everything and and there were places making cocktail cocktails in Copenhagen. There were, but not with shakers. Um, I think, you know, we were three hotel bars that were, you know, that could make a decent Manhattan and old-fashioned and stir, but and a dry martini stirred, but but nobody was shaking. Everyone was blending, you know, everything was frozen or or slush or whatever. So, um, so I I wanted to stir, I wanted to shake, I wanted to strain. And uh
a lot of people thought that was really strange and and you know but it's but I thought it was good to stick to my guns. Mhm. As a it's impressive your story as well. It's impressive of how you manage as well to keep going even you faced so many difficulties being a woman into into this industry. Do you believe that uh it could have been different if you had a partner as well as a woman or how would you how would you say? No, I think
it's been easiest to be alone even though it's also been very lonely. Um and I think because you don't know if in the beginning there was a lot of choices I had to do. Am I willing to do this compromise or this comp? you know, there's a lot of people who think they know better and you know that some of them are very successful. So you you're sort of asking yourself, should I listen to them or to me? And I think if I had had a
partner, I would have to compromise somewhere and what would those have been? Um, for example, in you know, it took two to three months before it sort of took off and um and a lot of people were saying I was crazy. I wasn't doing happy hour and and I I've never done happy hour and I just felt so strongly for not doing happy hour, not giving discounts, nothing, you know, and also because I I had a few smart people, you know, there's these sentences I just
remember from here and there from people giving me. One was when you o when you open your own business, you don't have friends. Yeah. You have customers. And it is so true. Um, so, so I stuck to my guns and even though I had days where I didn't sell anything, all in all my sales just rose and rose and rose and and I also think the timing was right. If I had opened five years before, I might not have survived or if you know it and
it would probably have been easier if I had waited five years. But um but you know it it took off and and it it took off. It was okay. I you know I could just pay my bills and um but I've always been a little bit sensible. I've always tried to be yes sensible uh with with money and what I do and what I don't do. So I think that helped too. So you you've been always that conscious person that wanted to to stick to one
bar because most of the people nowadays when they open a bar right the moment they open they said okay we're going to have two three more. Why not opening a second K bar or a series of K bars? Well, I I I will admit at at several stages I have been looking at locations, but I've been a little bit horrified by the rents and even for many years ago. Um, and also the key factor is you need the right person in place. And in our business,
as you know, there's been 2,000 times where I thought I had the right person and it and it wasn't. Um, and I think that always scared me a little bit. Uh, losing control and I just, you know, at at at a certain stage, I just thought it's so much easier. Stick to your guns, just stick to KBAR. I also was afraid that I would turn into a CEO and and I don't think that's where my force is. I think my force is teaching people hospitality. Uh
how to work behind a bar, what to think about, what not to think about. Um, I think that's where my and I think it's very important that we do we we pay our, you know, we pay other people to do what we're not so good at and then we make money on what we're really good at. Yeah. We we mentioned multiple times across this conversations hospitality. What does hospitality means to you personally? Well, I think hospitality specifically in our business is and I've said this over
and over again, a good a good tasty delicious cocktail, it's only 30 maybe less percent of of a of a of a guest's experience. And you look at crummy places that are full every single day, it's not because of the cocktail. necessarily. It's because of the party going on or the whatever is going on for different reasons. Um and and I think really really good hospitality is giving people the whole package. Uh eye contact when they come in. Are you playing the proper music that's appropriate
for that for those kind of guests? Um what are you wearing? What's your body language? Uh the lighting, is it cozy? Um, do you have the right choice of staff for your venue? Uh, all these things, the whole package. Uh, talking about the right stuff, how do you find stuff? I have to admit through the years you've seen many people, you've seen all of the changes into the behaviors. How do you manage to find the right stuff or what is the right stuff? Well, it's what
is the right stuff? I don't know. Um, I think probably one of my I I think one of my most weak sides is um being good at being good at being a boss of staff. I think I've learned a lot so I'm much better today. But the first eight ten years I think I made a lot of stupid mistakes. Um and that's because nobody has taught me otherwise. Um and I think you know when I started hearing different ways of of uh you know the different
well it's just you know bad environment doesn't help your your business. I think that's a very basic thing. Um, and I think that, you know, a lot of people are also afraid of teaching other people things because they're going to steal your ideas and all. It's rubbish, all of it. I And I think anyone who's good at their job, it's it's our it's a gift that we're really good at something and to pass it on to the younger. And and I think it's so important to
think that it's a compliment if people are pinching your ideas or copying you a little bit. You know, it's a compliment. Yeah. There's not so many people thinking the same way and uh as a younger generation, I'm part of the younger generation. we or I often tend to look at persons like you and take as an inspiration and have them as a role models or leaders into the industry. Why do you think there's not so many people still activating in this industry or especially women's into
this industry? Well, I think that it's it's I think it's a rainbow of of reasons. Um I think first of all, why why do people get into the business? And I al so I think looking into to those answers I think already there you have your answers to your question. Uh why do people get into this business um an attitude and and also what you do in your workplace you are the boss of being rewarded or not. I'm thinking from, you know, either your superiors or
from your guests or from your colleagues. For me, that's an adrenaline to get rewarded. Um, and and I just think I think with women, I think we're still doing a lot of things wrong. We're bringing up our our girls in the wrong way. Um, and I actually my father would have been a hundred today, but he was and he was a patriarch, you know, he was the boss in our family, but he's always brought me up to brush things off and saying there's a lot of
idiots out there and there's a lot of discrimination going on. You just have to brush it off your shoulder and work hard and go for it. So, and and a lot of other things he also said, but I think he's uh he's been an instigator to my insistence to to exist and to also, you know, have my right. Um, and I when I go around looking at the businesses and and looking at bartenders and so on, and I think a lot of the girls are in
the business for the wrong reason. you know, if they're in it for, you know, five or six years while they're studying and having fun, go for it. I did, too. I've had one hell of a ride for many, many years. So, yeah, of course. And and our business is exceptional in that direction. We can have so much fun. Um but if you if you want to make a career out of it, a job, a proper job, it also has to start with you to respect the
job. And if you want to become a professional, then act like a professional. Um, I don't think anyone in our business is looking down the nose at anyone who gets drunk or anything, but if you do it at work, I would get really angry. Or if you come to work with a hangover or on drugs or whatever, you're fired because it's not only am I paying you, but the guests are paying you, too. They're paying for cocktails, and they're not paying to look at you look
like an idiot and being unprofessional. Um, so I think to have the right attitude to our job, we have to start with ourselves. We have to demand respect because, you know, I mean, I've even up in age when I've been dating a guy, he's saying, "When are you going to get a proper job? Who does he think he is?" You know, it's I think it's so bizarre. But I just think we are at fault. We have not claimed respect and we haven't a lot of people
are not behaving professionally at work. Yeah. One uh one thing that I noticed as well it's it's hard and easy at the same time if you go with a mindset of uh okay I want to make a career out of this one. Yes alcohol it's widely available for us but if you treat it with respect as you said and if you treat it as a job you say okay it's still a business my mind needs to be clean all the time. So your point proved uh
as well the same situation in here and uh I would say right now talking go on behalf of my generation maybe they will hate me maybe not we did not treated this one as a full profession and we need to do something about it because right now Denmark it's a exceptional place for chefs. Everybody when you say Denmark they think about chefs. We are a bit behind with the cocktails and we need to do something out of it just to to raise it a bit more
and people consider the bartenders a real job. Consider it as a profession as a chef or as an artist or as a musician is what would what would you say one solution will be for that? Uh well I think there's there's basically a huge difference between bartenders and chefs. Not in smartness, intelligence or charm or anything. But I think one of the keys to the success in Denmark in the gastro world is that all chefs have the same education hotel and they're all educated from there.
So it is up to that pupil where they want to bring it. Do they want to work in a cantina or do they want to work at Numa? And and I think that is what is so unique with the Danish model is that it's the same house, the same building. They're all educated. They all have the same basic education, but it's up to you individually to bring it to the skies if you want. So they start with the foundation basically and then you shake it in.
And we don't. So that's why I think it's even more important that we as as as older in the business that we do try to teach our staff as much as possible. Um and that's also that's I'm always trying to appeal to them to be professional if they want to stay in the business. Um because there is I mean some of my staff are students so they are have you know the 10 11 hours a week for their su and all that and then I have
full-time bartenders but I really demand that they're professional. What are you wearing? How do you address your customers? I expect them to read the newspaper every day so that they can converse also because we have a lot of uh foreigners, you know, I expect I expect them to be able to if if people choose to sit in the bar, it's very often because they want to talk to you or somebody. If they sit at a table, then they can choose to do whatever they want. But
there's nothing worse than than and I've tried it, you know, you come to a bar. I I've also had staff, you know, who didn't who' never traveled, who didn't read, who knew nothing. How uninteresting is that? You know, it's boring. So, it's I think that is that's important. If you want to become good bartender, read. You don't have to be super intelligent, but read uh you know, know what the EU what is that uh you know, which country, which country um you know, historically did this
or that, you know, just have the conversation going. Um, and also secondly, culturally, you know, that you know about different cultures that you have a nose for it and and just a little bit of basic knowledge. Um because that I you know I have a Greek, I have I have Spanish, I have different uh I have people from all over the world working for me and culture has will often influence the way the choices they make, the way they address you, the way everything. And I
think if you have a basic knowledge of that, it will help you how you choose to talk to people. When uh when you choose your stuff, do you tend to go more for the women's or do you tend to go more for for the males? No, I I I always it always warms my heart if I meet uh you know what I would regard as professional female bartenders. It makes me happy. Uh but no I go I think in a small workplace like KBAR it is
super important with the chemistry. Um and also so I try I I not try but I I try to focus on the papers the CV and the person and not which sex they are or anything. It I try not to um that's actually also the way I've been brought up. Um but but of course it I get really happy if there's a female B and I I've just had two female bartenders. So um but it's not a focus. Um and I think you know trial shifts
of the two-hour trial shifts that I usually ask people to do. It will come out if the chemistry is there and and if their attitude is right. So is more focused on the attitude than than the skills because skills I assume it's much easier to train than the attitude. I actually actually no I I really would like the cleverest bartender to seek a job with me because I think it's wonderful that somebody can bring something new to the table. Mhm. Uh Kar wasn't the way it
looks today, the way we work. It's not made by me 100%. I I've had different clever bartenders come in and say, "Listen, Kiss, I think it's easier if we do this and that or this and this way. I listen and and that's how KBAR, you know, has reached this far. It's it's a result of a lot of professional opinions that have been behind bar. That's uh that's fantastic to see people willing to to listen and um I wanted to ask you more when we are going
to this listening part. What's your management style? Um that's you should ask someone else that. Um I think I'm probably in many ways typical Danish. Um what does that mean? That means that I expect people individually to take responsibility and also to take initiative. Um and and I and take initiative and to regard um your colleagues and the workplace as a group work. You you solve the problems together. You don't, you know, stampede your way and and and uh and and decide or something. You you
you you ask, you know, you you do it as a group. You solve the whole, you know, the whole hospitality at Ko. You solve it as a group. That's uh that's great. Um through the years, you've seen the industry basically growing. What how was it when you started compared to to now in terms of stuffing? what changed in the mindset? Well, you know, it's been up and down through the years. If uh I mean, you know, we all around Corona, it was a nightmare to get
staff and all that and it was for about one and a half year after that and now it's much easier now. And also because I've never had so many good applications because a lot of places are promising staff full-time and not giving it to them which I think the bar owners should be ashamed of themselves because it's people's livelihood. You know, I have I just over and over again I have people continuously writing and calling, "Are you sure it's fulltime?" And I don't write it's full
time if I don't mean it. And and I also seek waiters, you know, for only 11 hours. I write it. Yeah. It's not 30 hours, it's not 20, it's 11 hours and it's a weekend and that's that. Um, so I think shame on bar owners who don't stick to what they promise because it is grown up people's livelihood. It's not silly teenagers and and I I really think it's awful. Um, so it is easier today. So it's easier today than uh than before to get stuff.
Yes. And and good stuff. uh because because of I think a it's it's more that now than I've seen before that a lot of places are not living up to what they're promising. So therefore, you know, and there are some people who say, "Okay, okay, we know that when Kristen says full-time, it's full-time." So, um and I'm actually right now looking for a full-time bartender and and uh so I have to pull myself together soon and arrange uh trial shifts and so on. So it's it's
uh it's interesting but also um I think a lot of bartend good skilled bartenders you know they're working in the hotels and the hotels have really picked up on salaries and we I can't compete against them. I don't think any high-end bar in Copenhagen can pick those, you know, do those salaries. And good for them, you know, it's because they were screaming and shouting before and and I certainly wouldn't brag about my salary at that time, you know, when I was younger in the hotel business.
It was the tips that made it worthwhile. Um but um but yeah, I I think times have changed that way. And also there's so many foreign students here. uh all my waiters and waitresses, you know, working in the weekends and Thursdays and all that. They're all, you know, on ESU and then doing the minimum 10 to 11 hours a week thing. So, and that's much easier, too. But I think it's always tricky to get someone that lives up to the way they seem to be. Mhm.
So I'm always afraid you, oh they're going to change, you know, when they start Monday morning, you know, or you know, it's are they going to live up to what I see now? So, um, and and you don't, you know, I don't want to be rude. I don't want to be pushy in my comments or questions and so on. And I always presume that people are telling me the truth on their CVs, where they've been, for how long, and so on. It's very rare I check
up on anybody. So, you check up basically on them in person. Yeah, I do. And I mean, I have I won't mention names, but I have a girl who's been very insistent. And I said to her last time, listen, you're going to have to do more about, you know, your cocktail side. You you don't know anything, but she felt she did know. And I said, "Have you been a customer at KBar? Have you bought cocktails at KBAR?" And she said, "No, I've only been in to
look." I said, "But you've got to come in, sit down, order a cocktail, and if you can do what you see there doing behind the bar, then apply again." She's applied again, but she still does know much more. And she hopes that I will teach her. And and and I just think, you know, okay, but we're too far to we don't if I had a a runner position, that that could be interesting. and then to shift that person slowly into the bar. I've had waitresses and
waiters who who were like I was when I was young caught up by what was going on behind the bar. So, Renata, my bar chef, she uh you know, she came from the Royal Academy of Architecture and she was uh finished with her bachelor degree and she was waitressing for me. And then uh when my bar chef stopped, she asked me if she could have the job. And I looked, "Yeah, sure." Because I always offer I always think it's worth the investment that your bar your
your your floor staff also know how to mix cocktails, genotonics. Explain to them, you know, because and that's another thing a lot of people underestimate, most of the sale is on the floor and not in the bar. So the floor is actually much more important. But we all seem to be so focused on the bar. Even I have catch myself looking in the bar. Okay, who's sitting? Where is everyone happy in the bar? And then I you know and then I look at the floor and
it it's just a bad habit. It's it's a funny image that bar just has. It you know attracts my attention. Um, so I always try to, it's really important to train your bar staff prop your your floor staff properly so they can sell it. You know, I always go crazy when when waiter waiters they start pulling a guest up to look at the 30 different gins we have. Oh, don't do that. We're busy. Um, so I always try to say to them, listen, before they start
asking, before you give them a chance to ask which gins do we have, look at them immediately and ask, would you like, you know, would you like a smooth gin or a sharp gin? Uh, and whiskey, you know, do you want do you want a rye, a bourbon, da for Manhattan? Don't go into brands and names. let the bartenders choose and write it, you know, down when you order it that smooth gin and then the bartender will. So, it's more like a synergy between the bartender
and the the floor staff if they communicate in a proper way. That's alpha and it's so important. I I go totally I go crazy if any bartenders um don't speak nicely to the to the floor. First of all, they're really important in your business. Secondly, nobody's you don't have people not speaking nicely to each other in a workplace. That I have learned. Yeah. Because I could be, you know, I could lose my temper too and I probably still can. But I really for many years now
I've really tried to control it. And uh when you when you have people going from one position to to another, what kind of skills or what kind of mindset do you look for them to have? Well, I think in a job seeking situation, I I really want them to know how to do really good cocktails. I want them to be able uh to pick the right, you know, do the right choices. um you know it's like a chef you know how do you make a red
wine sauce or something you know there's some basic or how do you boil potatoes you have to know that because it takes too much time and and I actually think a lot of people underestimate how much training it takes to be a good bartender and and I don't think I have that we don't have that time because Friday is up soon you know we're going to get busy you have to know your job. Um, but what you can do and which is very important to me
is because you can have a really good bartender, but you also need them to go in what I call my direction. And that is the DNA of your business. I feel, and I've always worked for it, that's always been the focus of all my choices. Everything has to fit to KBAR's DNA. It has a DNA. You always you have it's a restaurant or if it's a bar or hotel or a shop, a shoe shop or the most successful ones will always have a DNA. You know,
you walk in blindfolded, you mustn't be in doubt about where you are. Mhm. Um and so therefore some of I I I feel that we have a bit of a of a you know a certain profile in our t in which tastes we go for uh at KBAR and I expect my new bartenders to pick up on that. Um so so you know basically I want them to be good bartenders but also to go in the direction and to respect the DNA of uh of KBAR.
If we if we go back just one step uh behind what would be one thing that uh a bartender let's take the example it's uh working in a hotel and they want to swap to the cocktail bars why should they do this uh this change okay I've worked in the hotel business for you know I can't remember almost 20 years or more Um I I really loved my time in the hotel business. It taught me so much about and and you know the hotel business is
so fascinating because it has different departments. It has different aspects you have to consider. So I always understand what people find uh to be attractive and going you know doing a career as in the hotel business. But on the other hand um the budget focusing the bureaucracy that has really taken over in the hotels you know it's very often you will have uh food and beverage managers who are paid salary according to what they can save of money and then I don't have to say much
more about how you know how it will affect a bar. Yeah. So that's a that's a great answer. That's a great answer for the people who are will going to listen they will know exactly what the what that means as well. Good. So you open the bar. How was after let's say five years or after 10 years compared to now because to the newer generation it's a bit mind-blowing to have somebody like you over here and uh being in the business for 23 years. How much
the industry did evolve from day one to to now? How much of the industry the culture the cocktail culture evolved in Copenhagen? Um well I think half a year after I opened the first cocktail bar opened uh and then you know it started drizzling. I don't think any of them are open still with the same owners. Uh I can't think of it at least. Um, no there they've, you know, changed location and and this and that. Um, but I but I think I think after 10
years I opened, I think the cocktail bars became really, you know, high-end and there was suddenly several and also the customers changed. I think um I think um you know the customers became more and more conscious about you know what they want branding you know uh could I have a study schnea cosmopolitan you know a little bit American Americanized um and and it's not that bad today but it you know it suddenly became modern to brand the cocktail you ordered um which was really annoying um
but I I think people are very conscious about oh can I please have a very dry or can I have a very citrusy margarita or can I have a so people are are very much more conscious now and it's uh I I like that and as a community as the the people who shaped this uh industry how did it changed how do you see it nowadays with the newer generation compared to to your generation do you see them cocktails the cocktails I think basically the business
hasn't changed at all. Um but of course if you want to open something new, you want to do something and I think the tendency now is just to make it more and more complicated and technically complicated. you know, you fat wash, you uh you you use drain, you still you this or that that, you know, um and you use uh citric acid instead of lime and and lemon and and uh everything has to be see-through, big ice cube, thin expensive glasses, and you know, it's just
nothing new. It's just in a in a different packaging. And as the people, are they more together now or are still separated or? Um, well, it struck me. I was just invited by you uh to go to Kgnac and we were 16 smaller bar owners and a most of us had been in the business, you know, for we had known each other for 10, 15, 15 years. Um, and that was actually quite fun because I've never met them this way and it was really interesting. Um,
and it was such a good vibe. So, you know, everyone's settled and doing the best they can. Um, and we all agree, you know, since since co um the patterns have changed a lot of things, but to point out exactly what has changed, no, I can't do that. But we I still think there's a good atmosphere. But I do feel that people are going are trying to find their own individual way which which is smart because as soon if the bars start looking too much like
each other it's going to not be very interesting to go out. So it's still more like collaboration between you but trying to compete with each other right or between parts. No, I I think compared to a lot of other countries, I probably think the um the chemistry is a little bit bit more smooth here among us. Yeah. Um I always feel that if I call someone and ask advice on where did you get your ice cube or where did you buy that glass I saw on
Instagram or da da da, I always get an answer. People are always polite and nice in our you know different bar owners. Um so so in that way it's always been you know really nice to be in the business. Um there's a lot of the young people I don't know them. Um you know I try to if I have bartenders that compete I always try to go to the competitions you know not only to support my bartender but you know to sniff around and look uh
what's going on and and but it it's a lot of new faces all the time. So, it's uh it's a little bit confusing and and it's probably also because there's just so many bars opened and uh and hotel bars opened and and a lot of hotels really are trying to heighten the the level. Um you mentioned competitions. How important are they are them in a bartender career or a professional career? I don't know how important they are, but I I've competed a lot and I when
I competed um there's huge different I'm so happy I'm not competing now um I think when I competed for many many years I saw a lot of what I didn't want to do I don't want to be like that person I don't want to make that person's cocktail are terrible and this and that and that um I think today there's a a lot of really good cocktails being made. Um I think the knowledge is so different today and the style is different and also because of
social media and and uh well everything you know you must remember we didn't have mobile phones in the 90s. We didn't have the the internet in the same way and all that. And uh today the knowledge comes quicker, you know, you get smarter quicker faster than we did for many years ago. So the the competitions now there's there's, you know, exciting infusions or tea thingies or, you know, there's there's more exciting things going on now than there was when I was younger. That's a that's a
great way to to say it. And um I'm just rambling things going back and forth. I just like to ask you because our listeners we're going to get a lot of uh things from uh from your experience. Um coming back to the school situation, how do you see it as a as a solution? what it needs to be done at least in Copenhagen or in Denmark as a as a group to make a difference for for for the industry industry itself um well I think there's
many aspects I think um work environment is very important I think among us in the hospitality business um I think a lot of people underestimate how important chemistry um and work attitude and ethics are in our industry. Um and uh I have a question as well. What keeps you motivated? Because we've been talking we've been talking for the past 45 minutes, but I did not ask you what keeps you still motivated of going on and on every day. It's a tough job I think. Yeah, I
think and that also that answer it's a tough job has a lot to do with um you know what we actually started the little talk together is about you know why are there not more elderly bartenders or female bin that is exactly has something to do with it too um I think it's just so important that in our business that you choose it, you know, you you you manifest it, you choose it. Um, I think in it's it's almost impossible to be in our business halfheartedly
because then you could just work in a pub or in a bodega or whatever. Um, if you want to work in a high-end cocktail bar, you just have to include different aspects in our business. And I think a lot of people aren't doing that. They think they choose it. Um, but you also have to be honest with yourself. Um, do you want do you want a wife and a dog and three children? You know, you have to ask yourself all these questions. Do you want all
these evening shifts? So, I think I think probably also I'm very different from a lot of people. Um, I never ever wanted a office job. I never wanted any 9-to-five job. I could never see myself like that. And today, of course, I can't get enough, you know. Oh, no evenings for me. Thank you. If I could work with But I al think I'm just old now, you know. But I really, you know, thinking back, I really loved going to work. I I think you know the
adrenaline and the and you never knew what was going to happen that day or you got to be flooded by someone from a big party from the banquet rushing down to your barn or is someone suddenly get a a heart attack in the bar you know I mean it was just so many crazy things always happening and I love it um but I also think there's a lot of self-discipline do in making the bar attractive to come to work to and work for. I think there's
so many different aspects and it's important for you to find out your DNA and what can you do to make yourself more happy at work. So it basically becomes the second home, right? Yes. Yeah. And but you also most of us use a lot of hours. You know if in Denmark a 37 uh hour a week is a full-time job. Some people say oh it's so many hours. Other people we will laugh at that 37 hours it's nothing. But but it's still many hours away from
home and or not in your free time. And and I just think it's really important for all of us for for quality of life to be happy those 37 hours and think it's interesting and how how did you manage to balance the life and the bar life? Yeah. How how that one uh that is so it's so difficult. I also think there's a huge difference between me being a bar owner. Um I I feel it's my responsibility for everything to function to work. Um but as
an employee I think it's I I don't know exactly how to explain it but I think what has made it for me to survive is planning. I have a very strict planning. I have a work schedule. I let me let me just I I don't want to sound too holy or anything because I have within the last one and a half year gone down in hours big time because I just felt I was getting too old. I had problems with my shaker arm and yeah I
just felt okay. I'm getting old. I got to do something. So I went down in hours. I come to the bar every day in a couple of hours and help them unpack bottles or you know I'll water the plants because they forget that. uh or just check the toilet. Is everything soap full? You know, I I'll and then I'll see things, you know, but um I have always had a strict routine, my schedule, you know, my private schedule. I have my work schedule. I I I'm
planning that's unusual for somebody who's working in the I have to because also with private friends if I if I uh you know Oh, let's go out and eat and try this new Italian restaurant around the corner. Um, I can't just do it, you know. And there's some bar owners that call me and say, "Hey, let's go out. Have you seen there's that tasting? We can also have some dinner there uh tonight." And I said, "But I can't. I I'm going to a dinner or or
I'm going to work or I can very rare. Today I can, but for before one and a half year ago, when you looked at my calendar, it was crazy, you know, and if somebody cancelled a dinner, I didn't have a free night before two two weeks from then. Uh, but but my most of my friends learned that, you know, that when when when we had an agreement to go out, I meant business, you know, don't cancel me. But it it it really just takes a lot
of organization and planning to get it right. You know that you see your private friends, you have your night with your evening with your boyfriend. And also I loved having and it was so rare. I had one evening or night where I didn't have to do anything. I could, you know, see a Netflix thing or I could uh or look ugly all evening. didn't have to think about anything. I could have bad breath or whatever, you know. That's important for me too to have one night
where it's just me. So time for your yourself. Yeah. And that was rare. And I think the luxury now is I I feel now I have time to just look out in the air. I know it sounds really crazy, but but because I I feel my whole life everything has been planned. I've had to work have a work schedule, private schedule, everything. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And and now I can take a book out in the afternoon. Like yesterday, for example, in the good weather,
I took a book, I sat in the shade under a tree and read a book. I could not have done that in any of all the years before that. I I there's always Okay, Sunday, even though I'm not open Sunday, oh, I have to check uh those bills. I have to uh wash the the dirty linen from the bar. I have to uh write those mail and complain about this or do that. Yesterday nothing of course I answer a few mails so I doesn't you know
so I don't have a lot to look at Monday morning but it's it's such a luxury to have time to dwell and I've haven't had that for so many years. What did they change in uh in planning then? How how did you change it? I I enforce it on myself. I um and of course uh it also means the bar is making less money and less profit because suddenly I'm not working 50 hours a week behind the bar. Um, I just I just it took me
some time to convince and I think I still am suffering from a bad conscience because I'm not working so much and uh and it's really taken time to get used to and even I you know even you know today I grab myself from saying something stupid you know as though I have a I'm making excuses for myself for going down in hours and um but it's made me happier and you know it's it's again finding that um spark in connection with your work. It's it's so
you know you you either have some people don't have that luxury. Yeah. Um you know if the business is going down in sales and this and that then I have to save money I have to work even more and this and that. I don't know what I what to say to those people and and and of and and our sales have also gone down uh because so many places have opened and people have changed pattern and all that but I'm still making money. I still doing
a plus um and and I've just agreed with myself to to make less money for myself. Um and it's been worth it. Really been worth it. Um but I I think we all have to make our own choices. But it's so important. It's not just for bar people. I think it's for everybody to have a job that you really like to go to. Yeah, I can see you have a lot of passion through it and everybody can see to your career that the passion is there.
Yeah. So that's as well for me one of the most uh driving things. If you don't have the passion, if you don't like what you are doing, then it's useless. Yeah. You're not going to do it. You will do it for a while and then probably change change career. Yeah. But uh that's an amazing story and uh I have one more question before we are wrapping the whole um the whole thing up. What would be one advice that you were going to give to somebody who
is it in the middle of the career and they want to change path or maybe go to the next step? You mean next step of of becoming even a better bartender? Of becoming a even better bartender, of becoming a bar owner, of becoming something. I think for uh for as a bartender, I think um I think it's so important never to think that you know everything because we do meet bartenders who think they know everything. And if you ever think you do know everything, you're lost.
There's so many new trends, there's so many new products, there's so many new things going on. And the day you think you know everybody, might as well find another job. And I also think if you want to become more clever, um I think it's sensible to change jobs, go from bar to bar, even, you know, think of going abroad. If I had been much younger, I would uh I actually did try to get a job abroad a couple of times, but they weren't wild about women.
Um you know, London, New York, places like that. Um there are some bars that I think technically al also hospitalitywise are such you know are admirable. It's it's it's admirable to see how they work and you know the the eye contact, the body language, everything is in order. Everything's working for them. Um I'm not perfect that way. I'm not um probably too Danish to become that perfect. But um but and and actually I' I forgot to mention that too. If you really really want to become
a good bartender, I know I mentioned about the news. I've also said I I've I also think you should uh it's very important that you are culturally observant. Now I'm not a fashion interested person as such but I always look okay what is the fashion industry saying? I I love but I've been brought up that way. I love to go to museums. I like to see modern exhibitions, old exhibitions, you know, just exhibitions. I think it's really important to and music, what's going on in the
music business. Um, I think it's so u it will enrich you as a bartender and it will enrich your customers and your workplace. The smarter and more knowledgeable you are, it everything will be enriched around you. And I also think privately in your personal life too. So for me I really want the you know I hope bartenders do that too. Um not to become trendy or nothing but it's often that uh fashion or or contemporary uh exhibitions uh literature and music it will tell you it
it not tell you but it will give you a sense of what's going on in society. what's going on in the world, what what are what are the tendencies? Yeah, that that's a great advice. Basically, taking from the other industries and bringing it into here and being acknowledge of what happens in there. It's something that most of us, not even the bartenders, like everybody should uh should do in order to have a great time with the with his beers. So, thank you, Kirsten. And uh thank
you so much. And I hope our listeners will going to take something uh out of uh this conversation. And uh again, thank you for being pleased to barox podcast. Pleasure. Absolutely. Anytime.